It was election times in Independiente, one of the big 5 of Argentinean football.
Independiente has a strong liaison with the Grondona family, whose patriarch, Julio Humberto, is the president of the Argentinean FA.
As Independiente is historically one of the most difficult clubs to run, I wanted to talk to somebody with experience in the club. Someone that knows the ins and outs of managing the Avellaneda giant on a daily basis.
During his tenure as president of the club between 2002 and 2004, he was faced with good and bad moments.
He stood against Grondona like nobody had done before and paid the consequences, by being ostracised by the football association, and eventually the fans of his own team drove him to resign.
Since then he has chosen to stay away from football all together.
Last time I interviewed somebody, ex Velez president Raul Gamez, I had gone there with the idea of asking about violence in football, but he was in a mood to talk about Grondona.
Well, I should have learnt my lesson there, as my interviewee this time Andres Ducatenzeiler, ended up talking about much and the same as Gamez.
For the record I don’t do militant journalism. So be aware that all the views are that of Andres Ductenzeiler alone.
Do you still pay attention to what goes on in Independiente?
AD- as a fan I follow the team, suffer with the results, and want them to do well.
As for the political life or running of the club, I don’t anymore. My 2 years there told stressed me for life and I made a promise to my family not to get involved.
So you don’t support anyone at all on this campaign?
AD- even if did, I would not say it. Nowadays my support could damage a candidate more than help him.
Why is that, you think?
AD- Well, our saviour “Don Julio” did enough to put the Independiente fans against me. With all his power and favours, he bought their support to get me out of a presidency that was doing well, but was going against him.
Does that happen in every club? What is the relationship between barrabravas and clubs?
AD- I don’t like the term Barrabravas, That seems to indicate that it is only an elite of 10 or 20 people that are trouble, when in reality is not like that.
I remember a derby game we played against Racing. We had 16 so called barras, banned from the game, but during the incidents that happened later there were 300 fighting against the police, and the thousands that were in the stands? They were singing and supporting them. Nobody was going “ok let’s stop this”.
OK, but within this big group, those known to us as the barras have any special liaisons with the club?
AD- Off course they do. I ve never heard Boca, in my times for example say that Rafa Di Zeo (note: was the Boca barrabravas boss and he is trying to return now), does not represent them. That in itself gives the guy, a status, some power. And believe it or not, when times came to make decisions in Boca, even if he is not in the club’s committee, they spoke to him. At the end of the day he was “in charge” of 2500 or 3000 supporters, who in turn represent another 10.000 members of Boca as an institution. If he did not have that following, the second tier of the Bombonera wouldn’t be full. People go there, because they want to be close to “la 12” (nickname of the boca barrasbrava)
Wheter we like it or not, that is the way it is. In the 80’s the boss of the Independiente’s barras “el gallego” (nickname that refers to Spanish people in Argentina) used to sign authographs!
In the away games, if you were close to them you were better protected than by the police.
With time they were gaining more and more power, started realising that football is a business, and they joined the business.
They could not afford to go to the games, so they used that power to get tickets, buses to go to the games, and also political conections in order to get jobs.
So if everyone in football claims to not have links or not know the barras, where does the money for tickets and buses come from?
AD- From the club. The most influential members of the barras, are members of the club, and the club pays for their membership.
Basically, you are saying that the barras have their own budget withing the club’s budget.
AD- more or less. You incorporate it as part of the team’s budget. For example. You need to play a game for the Copa Sudamericana away from home.
In the budget for that game, you already calculate that 50 guys are going to travel. They are going to need, passports, plane tickets, game tickets, hotel. All within that budget. It is all in black and white, so it is not illegal.
I remember this once when the secretary told me that I had a telephone call from Di Zeo (boca barras’ boss). I thought it was a joke. But it was not.
He went straight to th point, he told me “look, in 2 weeks we play you in Avellaneda, I am bringing 1500 people with me, and the police always cause trouble for us when we cross the Pueyredon bridge (the bridge is the southern limit between the Capital city and the Province of Buenos Aires). The people I am bringing with me are likely to react to that, and I don’t want that to happen” Then he said “You need to organise a meeting between you, the police and myself to arrange that they don’t bother us on our way to the stadium”
I did, the meeting went fine and nothing happened that day.
But most times there is violence and it is that group that causes it…
AD- yes, but you can’t just stop the fans and the police. You need to start from the top. The day that Grondona is toppled, then the police chief and the Di Zeo’s of the world will realise that they can be next. In the meantime all is fine for them.
So the Police and the barras are linked as well?
AD- Off course they are. In most countries the fights between fans are during games, and maybe a little after. Here most are after the game
The Police get paid overtime, in exchange they separate fans, but don’t really arrest any of the influential ones, and the ones they arrest, get released shortly after with a slap on the wrist.
So this way, barras do what they want to do, which is fight with each other, and gain impunity, and the police get paid more money.
And Grondona knows this?
AD- I was the president of a club and I knew it. He knows it fine well too.
The easy way out it will be to ban those fans from all games, to take points of the club they represent, and it stops immediately.
And if it is that simple, why isn’t it done?
AD- because it is not convenient for Grondona. When the clubs are small or they owe favours to him, then action is taken. When it was necessary to relegate Chacarita (as the president of the club was ruffling a few feathers), he took points of them at the first sign of violence.
When Racing needed to be stopped from winning the title (they owe many favours to Don Julio, and were not playing game), they did the same there.
Grondona also knows the barras?
AD- what do you think? If not ask Shlenker (former boss of River Barras) how did he and the rest of his guys got tickets for the WC 2006 in Germany.
If he answers that question, then you ll see.
Grondona sacked Mr Nakis (former president of Deportivo Armenio) from the executive comitte of AFA after 23 years of holding that role, because he had the “audacity” to book a hotel for Germany 06 that was 50% cheaper than the budget he was given and declared it. The idea was to ”use” all the budget in the hotel, but sneak in the barras. In the end who replaced Nakis on that role? Don Julio’s son. 240 “guests” took Grondona to that WC, at €12k each. With that money you can pay the debt of some clubs.
But can’t they be identified by the cc cameras that AFA made the clubs install?
AD- Are you kidding me? When the order from AFA came that all clubs needed to install security cameras, we did our research and found a company with good quality tools, good guarantees and much cheaper than the one Grondona “suggested”.
Our treasurer said that to Julio, better and cheaper.
The answer was that all clubs needed to use this company, no other, not to worry about the quality or price, as they were never going to be used or paid.
The company now has been declared bankrupt, the systems are obsolete, but in the AFA balance said that they paid. So where is that money?
How is Grondona’s relationship with the committee members?
AD- it depends. If they are close to him, everything goes well for their clubs.
The most visible case of the last few years is Games for Velez. He transformed a social club, into one of the most succesfull clubs in the countries. A model institution.
He was clever enough to detach himself and club assets from AFA, so the club does well. But they ostracised him, and drove him out of football. Some people have “jobs for life” there and when we get the chance to get someone like Gamez we ruin him.
What surprised you the most about AFA?
AD- no doubt the power that Grondona holds. Any decision about anything in the game has to be his decision. Nothing for little that it seems gets passed without his say so.
How did you find Independiente when you took office?
AD- in a dire state. Debts all over the place. I asked advice, and they all told me to go and speak to Grondona. I did, slowly he was telling me everything that I needed to do with the club. And I realised that he is like that with everybody. As I was leaving his office there were another 10 clubs waiting to see him.
I even told him once that I did not want Elizondo to referee Independiente games. The compromise was that he was not going to officiate any Arsenal games either (Arsenal is the team whose president is Grondona’s son). I mean we won the title that year without being refereed by a guy who officiated the the opening game and the final of the same WC!
Is it only referees selection that are influenced like that?
AD- not at all. Curious scenarios or “coincidences” are aplenty. For example, in 2004 Newell’s win the title. 3 games to go and Newell’s were playing Boca in la Bombonera. Boca plays with the reserves and Newell’s beat them 3-1.
Earlier in that tournament Boca played their full starting eleven against Velez and beat them 6-0.
Why did they play the reserves against a title chasing team so close to the end for the tournament? Who was the other team fighting Newell’s for the honours? Gamez’s Velez. To complete the “coincidences” of that tournament, Boca played with the reserves another game. A game that they lost 1-0, against a team that was without a win on their last 9 games, and needed points to enhance their tally in the relegation battle. Which team? Arsenal.
And players, Managers, everybody know about this?
AD- yes, but they all make money. The board members realise that Grondona is the only one that will take them to watch a World Cup, all expenses paid with their families. The players, well, they all play their playstations, buy new cars, go out with the most fashionable models…
Does Grondona have any interest in any players?
AD- If you look at it legally no. But let’s analyse this. How come most of agent Gustavo Mascardi’s players end up playing for Arsenal? How come Denis was an Independiente player, but Arsenal had an agreement with his agent to get some of his transfer’s money? How come as well, Arsenal got a new stand and Mascardi was one of the main financial contributors towards it?
Really impossible to put everything that we talked about in one interview.
I will leave some material for a follow up next week.
He went on and on about referee allocation, unions, How some Managers get to the NT, etc.
Independiente has a strong liaison with the Grondona family, whose patriarch, Julio Humberto, is the president of the Argentinean FA.
As Independiente is historically one of the most difficult clubs to run, I wanted to talk to somebody with experience in the club. Someone that knows the ins and outs of managing the Avellaneda giant on a daily basis.
During his tenure as president of the club between 2002 and 2004, he was faced with good and bad moments.
He stood against Grondona like nobody had done before and paid the consequences, by being ostracised by the football association, and eventually the fans of his own team drove him to resign.
Since then he has chosen to stay away from football all together.
Last time I interviewed somebody, ex Velez president Raul Gamez, I had gone there with the idea of asking about violence in football, but he was in a mood to talk about Grondona.
Well, I should have learnt my lesson there, as my interviewee this time Andres Ducatenzeiler, ended up talking about much and the same as Gamez.
For the record I don’t do militant journalism. So be aware that all the views are that of Andres Ductenzeiler alone.
Do you still pay attention to what goes on in Independiente?
AD- as a fan I follow the team, suffer with the results, and want them to do well.
As for the political life or running of the club, I don’t anymore. My 2 years there told stressed me for life and I made a promise to my family not to get involved.
So you don’t support anyone at all on this campaign?
AD- even if did, I would not say it. Nowadays my support could damage a candidate more than help him.
Why is that, you think?
AD- Well, our saviour “Don Julio” did enough to put the Independiente fans against me. With all his power and favours, he bought their support to get me out of a presidency that was doing well, but was going against him.
Does that happen in every club? What is the relationship between barrabravas and clubs?
AD- I don’t like the term Barrabravas, That seems to indicate that it is only an elite of 10 or 20 people that are trouble, when in reality is not like that.
I remember a derby game we played against Racing. We had 16 so called barras, banned from the game, but during the incidents that happened later there were 300 fighting against the police, and the thousands that were in the stands? They were singing and supporting them. Nobody was going “ok let’s stop this”.
OK, but within this big group, those known to us as the barras have any special liaisons with the club?
AD- Off course they do. I ve never heard Boca, in my times for example say that Rafa Di Zeo (note: was the Boca barrabravas boss and he is trying to return now), does not represent them. That in itself gives the guy, a status, some power. And believe it or not, when times came to make decisions in Boca, even if he is not in the club’s committee, they spoke to him. At the end of the day he was “in charge” of 2500 or 3000 supporters, who in turn represent another 10.000 members of Boca as an institution. If he did not have that following, the second tier of the Bombonera wouldn’t be full. People go there, because they want to be close to “la 12” (nickname of the boca barrasbrava)
Wheter we like it or not, that is the way it is. In the 80’s the boss of the Independiente’s barras “el gallego” (nickname that refers to Spanish people in Argentina) used to sign authographs!
In the away games, if you were close to them you were better protected than by the police.
With time they were gaining more and more power, started realising that football is a business, and they joined the business.
They could not afford to go to the games, so they used that power to get tickets, buses to go to the games, and also political conections in order to get jobs.
So if everyone in football claims to not have links or not know the barras, where does the money for tickets and buses come from?
AD- From the club. The most influential members of the barras, are members of the club, and the club pays for their membership.
Basically, you are saying that the barras have their own budget withing the club’s budget.
AD- more or less. You incorporate it as part of the team’s budget. For example. You need to play a game for the Copa Sudamericana away from home.
In the budget for that game, you already calculate that 50 guys are going to travel. They are going to need, passports, plane tickets, game tickets, hotel. All within that budget. It is all in black and white, so it is not illegal.
I remember this once when the secretary told me that I had a telephone call from Di Zeo (boca barras’ boss). I thought it was a joke. But it was not.
He went straight to th point, he told me “look, in 2 weeks we play you in Avellaneda, I am bringing 1500 people with me, and the police always cause trouble for us when we cross the Pueyredon bridge (the bridge is the southern limit between the Capital city and the Province of Buenos Aires). The people I am bringing with me are likely to react to that, and I don’t want that to happen” Then he said “You need to organise a meeting between you, the police and myself to arrange that they don’t bother us on our way to the stadium”
I did, the meeting went fine and nothing happened that day.
But most times there is violence and it is that group that causes it…
AD- yes, but you can’t just stop the fans and the police. You need to start from the top. The day that Grondona is toppled, then the police chief and the Di Zeo’s of the world will realise that they can be next. In the meantime all is fine for them.
So the Police and the barras are linked as well?
AD- Off course they are. In most countries the fights between fans are during games, and maybe a little after. Here most are after the game
The Police get paid overtime, in exchange they separate fans, but don’t really arrest any of the influential ones, and the ones they arrest, get released shortly after with a slap on the wrist.
So this way, barras do what they want to do, which is fight with each other, and gain impunity, and the police get paid more money.
And Grondona knows this?
AD- I was the president of a club and I knew it. He knows it fine well too.
The easy way out it will be to ban those fans from all games, to take points of the club they represent, and it stops immediately.
And if it is that simple, why isn’t it done?
AD- because it is not convenient for Grondona. When the clubs are small or they owe favours to him, then action is taken. When it was necessary to relegate Chacarita (as the president of the club was ruffling a few feathers), he took points of them at the first sign of violence.
When Racing needed to be stopped from winning the title (they owe many favours to Don Julio, and were not playing game), they did the same there.
Grondona also knows the barras?
AD- what do you think? If not ask Shlenker (former boss of River Barras) how did he and the rest of his guys got tickets for the WC 2006 in Germany.
If he answers that question, then you ll see.
Grondona sacked Mr Nakis (former president of Deportivo Armenio) from the executive comitte of AFA after 23 years of holding that role, because he had the “audacity” to book a hotel for Germany 06 that was 50% cheaper than the budget he was given and declared it. The idea was to ”use” all the budget in the hotel, but sneak in the barras. In the end who replaced Nakis on that role? Don Julio’s son. 240 “guests” took Grondona to that WC, at €12k each. With that money you can pay the debt of some clubs.
But can’t they be identified by the cc cameras that AFA made the clubs install?
AD- Are you kidding me? When the order from AFA came that all clubs needed to install security cameras, we did our research and found a company with good quality tools, good guarantees and much cheaper than the one Grondona “suggested”.
Our treasurer said that to Julio, better and cheaper.
The answer was that all clubs needed to use this company, no other, not to worry about the quality or price, as they were never going to be used or paid.
The company now has been declared bankrupt, the systems are obsolete, but in the AFA balance said that they paid. So where is that money?
How is Grondona’s relationship with the committee members?
AD- it depends. If they are close to him, everything goes well for their clubs.
The most visible case of the last few years is Games for Velez. He transformed a social club, into one of the most succesfull clubs in the countries. A model institution.
He was clever enough to detach himself and club assets from AFA, so the club does well. But they ostracised him, and drove him out of football. Some people have “jobs for life” there and when we get the chance to get someone like Gamez we ruin him.
What surprised you the most about AFA?
AD- no doubt the power that Grondona holds. Any decision about anything in the game has to be his decision. Nothing for little that it seems gets passed without his say so.
How did you find Independiente when you took office?
AD- in a dire state. Debts all over the place. I asked advice, and they all told me to go and speak to Grondona. I did, slowly he was telling me everything that I needed to do with the club. And I realised that he is like that with everybody. As I was leaving his office there were another 10 clubs waiting to see him.
I even told him once that I did not want Elizondo to referee Independiente games. The compromise was that he was not going to officiate any Arsenal games either (Arsenal is the team whose president is Grondona’s son). I mean we won the title that year without being refereed by a guy who officiated the the opening game and the final of the same WC!
Is it only referees selection that are influenced like that?
AD- not at all. Curious scenarios or “coincidences” are aplenty. For example, in 2004 Newell’s win the title. 3 games to go and Newell’s were playing Boca in la Bombonera. Boca plays with the reserves and Newell’s beat them 3-1.
Earlier in that tournament Boca played their full starting eleven against Velez and beat them 6-0.
Why did they play the reserves against a title chasing team so close to the end for the tournament? Who was the other team fighting Newell’s for the honours? Gamez’s Velez. To complete the “coincidences” of that tournament, Boca played with the reserves another game. A game that they lost 1-0, against a team that was without a win on their last 9 games, and needed points to enhance their tally in the relegation battle. Which team? Arsenal.
And players, Managers, everybody know about this?
AD- yes, but they all make money. The board members realise that Grondona is the only one that will take them to watch a World Cup, all expenses paid with their families. The players, well, they all play their playstations, buy new cars, go out with the most fashionable models…
Does Grondona have any interest in any players?
AD- If you look at it legally no. But let’s analyse this. How come most of agent Gustavo Mascardi’s players end up playing for Arsenal? How come Denis was an Independiente player, but Arsenal had an agreement with his agent to get some of his transfer’s money? How come as well, Arsenal got a new stand and Mascardi was one of the main financial contributors towards it?
Really impossible to put everything that we talked about in one interview.
I will leave some material for a follow up next week.
He went on and on about referee allocation, unions, How some Managers get to the NT, etc.