Last week we presented you with the first part of an interview with former Independiente president Andres Ducatenzeiler.
Here we continue with part 2 where he reveals more of what he went through during his time at the helm of the club.
As per the first part, the views expressed here are solely those of Andres Ducatenzeiler.
You said earlier on that you won the title without being refereed by the best referee in the world. Why did you ask for that? Do all clubs ask for a certain official not to be designated to their games?
AD- In itself that is not bad, at least you are asking for someone NOT to be your referee.
But everyone asks, and the bad cases are the ones where some clubs ask for a particular referee to officiate their games.
Let’s for example move the clock back and think of that infamous game between Gimnasia and Boca.
The referee was Daniel Gimenez. To refresh your memory, first half finishes and Gimnasia are leading 1-0.
It was the wrong result. Boca needed to win. So Gimenez started dishing out cards.
Six Gimnasia players got yellowed in the first 45 minutes, and their manager gets sent off.
At half time, Gimnasia’s president and 3 board members go to Gimenez’s dressing room.
Referee claimed that they threatened to kill him, that there were no guarantees to carry on with the game, and suspended it.
Gimnasia’s top man, admits talking to the ref, but he said he only asked him to be kind on his report about the sending off of their manager, as he was going through a bad patch as his father had died that week.
So the game gets suspended.
If the ref was right, you would expect sanctions against Gimnasia, their president, etc. Nothing happened
If the ref was wrong, you would expect him to be stopped for a few games, etc. Nothing happened.
You remember what did happen? They rearranged that game for another time, with the second 45 minutes to be played, still Gimnasia leading 1-0. And the same Referee.
When did they complete the game? At a time when only Boca, River or Estudiantes (Gimnasia’s fiercest rivals) could win the title.
The game gets restarted and Boca wins 4-1
First goal comes from a penalty that never was, the third was in clear off-side.
You might think it’s a coincidence, but you’d be mistaken.
AFA needed Boca to be champions, they know that if Estudiantes had chances to win the title, the barras of Gimnasia can be “persuaded” to visit their own players and make it clear that they can’t beat Boca (every player was told that their lives were at risk if they won or drew that game).
With the fans as part of the plan, then the referee can have his influence without problems, and turns the tide in favour of Boca.
Gimnsia’s players were really scared, but obviously they can’t talk or say anything. They decided to try to make it bad enough for someone to investigate the game or raise suspicions. But nobody said anything.
It all sounds a bit too far fetched Andres. What favour does AFA owed Boca? With something like that wouldn’t have River and Estudiantes seen through it and complained about it?
AD- Think, Basile was Boca’s manager, and Grondona took him away half way through the season, to manage the national side. Normally compensation should be paid.
What better compensation than a title.
Boca’s President then, was Macri, and he had his own extra football activities that he needeed to worry about.
He was preparing his campaign to become Mayor of Buenos Aires.
Go and see the AFA records and you will see that suspiciously a week before the game gets completed; AFA makes a loan to both River and Estudiantes to save some deficits in their accounts balances ($2.5million lent to the clubs at a crucial time). That is in the books in black and white. River’s president said nothing, but their Manager Passarella, smelt a rat and protested, but nothing happened.
And who decides all this changes to dates, rearrangement of games, etc? Julio Humberto Grondona.
Who determines the referees for the games?
AD- There are two referee unions, which complicate things to start with.
You have the AAA union, and the SADRA union.
There is an ex referee in AFA, that talks to both parts, and chooses who referees which game.
Once he does this, then Grondona gets involved. He looks at it. He knows which club likes or dislikes a referee and amends it accordingly. Then sends it back to be signed, by not having his signature, it is understood that officially the decision was not his.
But if all is pre determined like you say. Who wins? Who gains anything from this?
AD- The only ones that break their back are the players. There are 11 in one side and 11 in the other, wanting to win. As a President I just wanted to make sure that my team was not robbed by executive decisions.
For example I knew that against Banfield away from home, we rarely won. The barras there are intimidating and close to the ground, so the refs get influenced. So I asked Grondona to play that game somewhere else. I wanted Independiente to have the chance to win. He picked the phone up, spoke to the Banfield President and said “listen, the game against Independiente will be played in Velez, in exchange for moving, all 100% of the gate money goes to your club, good bye.” And it was done.
Another example one day Grondona calls me to his office and says. You have this player, Pablo Guinazu, he needs to go to Newell’s.
To put you in the picture, Guinazu used to play for Newell’s, he escaped to Europe and Mexico, because he hated the President there Eduardo Lopez. Then we brought him back, we won the title, he became an icon with the fans, and had just been called by Bielsa to the National Team.
So I said to Grondona sorry Julio, he is not going anywhere, we need him, he is happy.
He interrupted me and said, Lopez is helping me in a court case in Rosario, He wants Guinazu. Pick any Newell’s player you want and we swap them over. And that is how Damian Manso arrived to Independiente.
How am I going to say no to him? What if I say no and then he gives me a referee I don’t want?
In 2004 Andres Ducatenzeiler was suspended by AFA for 2 years for speaking publicly against Grondona, incriminating him in illegal activities.
Since the,n he has also started legal action against the President of AFA.
His successor in Independiente, was Julio Comparada, who was a business partner of Grondona in the Insurance company “Surcos” used by AFA. And AFA’s marketing company “Puntogol”
Coincidental trivia, during Ducatenzeiler last 30 games as president, Independiente were not given any penalty kicks by referees, while they were given 1 per game in the first 7 games of his successor.
Here we continue with part 2 where he reveals more of what he went through during his time at the helm of the club.
As per the first part, the views expressed here are solely those of Andres Ducatenzeiler.
You said earlier on that you won the title without being refereed by the best referee in the world. Why did you ask for that? Do all clubs ask for a certain official not to be designated to their games?
AD- In itself that is not bad, at least you are asking for someone NOT to be your referee.
But everyone asks, and the bad cases are the ones where some clubs ask for a particular referee to officiate their games.
Let’s for example move the clock back and think of that infamous game between Gimnasia and Boca.
The referee was Daniel Gimenez. To refresh your memory, first half finishes and Gimnasia are leading 1-0.
It was the wrong result. Boca needed to win. So Gimenez started dishing out cards.
Six Gimnasia players got yellowed in the first 45 minutes, and their manager gets sent off.
At half time, Gimnasia’s president and 3 board members go to Gimenez’s dressing room.
Referee claimed that they threatened to kill him, that there were no guarantees to carry on with the game, and suspended it.
Gimnasia’s top man, admits talking to the ref, but he said he only asked him to be kind on his report about the sending off of their manager, as he was going through a bad patch as his father had died that week.
So the game gets suspended.
If the ref was right, you would expect sanctions against Gimnasia, their president, etc. Nothing happened
If the ref was wrong, you would expect him to be stopped for a few games, etc. Nothing happened.
You remember what did happen? They rearranged that game for another time, with the second 45 minutes to be played, still Gimnasia leading 1-0. And the same Referee.
When did they complete the game? At a time when only Boca, River or Estudiantes (Gimnasia’s fiercest rivals) could win the title.
The game gets restarted and Boca wins 4-1
First goal comes from a penalty that never was, the third was in clear off-side.
You might think it’s a coincidence, but you’d be mistaken.
AFA needed Boca to be champions, they know that if Estudiantes had chances to win the title, the barras of Gimnasia can be “persuaded” to visit their own players and make it clear that they can’t beat Boca (every player was told that their lives were at risk if they won or drew that game).
With the fans as part of the plan, then the referee can have his influence without problems, and turns the tide in favour of Boca.
Gimnsia’s players were really scared, but obviously they can’t talk or say anything. They decided to try to make it bad enough for someone to investigate the game or raise suspicions. But nobody said anything.
It all sounds a bit too far fetched Andres. What favour does AFA owed Boca? With something like that wouldn’t have River and Estudiantes seen through it and complained about it?
AD- Think, Basile was Boca’s manager, and Grondona took him away half way through the season, to manage the national side. Normally compensation should be paid.
What better compensation than a title.
Boca’s President then, was Macri, and he had his own extra football activities that he needeed to worry about.
He was preparing his campaign to become Mayor of Buenos Aires.
Go and see the AFA records and you will see that suspiciously a week before the game gets completed; AFA makes a loan to both River and Estudiantes to save some deficits in their accounts balances ($2.5million lent to the clubs at a crucial time). That is in the books in black and white. River’s president said nothing, but their Manager Passarella, smelt a rat and protested, but nothing happened.
And who decides all this changes to dates, rearrangement of games, etc? Julio Humberto Grondona.
Who determines the referees for the games?
AD- There are two referee unions, which complicate things to start with.
You have the AAA union, and the SADRA union.
There is an ex referee in AFA, that talks to both parts, and chooses who referees which game.
Once he does this, then Grondona gets involved. He looks at it. He knows which club likes or dislikes a referee and amends it accordingly. Then sends it back to be signed, by not having his signature, it is understood that officially the decision was not his.
But if all is pre determined like you say. Who wins? Who gains anything from this?
AD- The only ones that break their back are the players. There are 11 in one side and 11 in the other, wanting to win. As a President I just wanted to make sure that my team was not robbed by executive decisions.
For example I knew that against Banfield away from home, we rarely won. The barras there are intimidating and close to the ground, so the refs get influenced. So I asked Grondona to play that game somewhere else. I wanted Independiente to have the chance to win. He picked the phone up, spoke to the Banfield President and said “listen, the game against Independiente will be played in Velez, in exchange for moving, all 100% of the gate money goes to your club, good bye.” And it was done.
Another example one day Grondona calls me to his office and says. You have this player, Pablo Guinazu, he needs to go to Newell’s.
To put you in the picture, Guinazu used to play for Newell’s, he escaped to Europe and Mexico, because he hated the President there Eduardo Lopez. Then we brought him back, we won the title, he became an icon with the fans, and had just been called by Bielsa to the National Team.
So I said to Grondona sorry Julio, he is not going anywhere, we need him, he is happy.
He interrupted me and said, Lopez is helping me in a court case in Rosario, He wants Guinazu. Pick any Newell’s player you want and we swap them over. And that is how Damian Manso arrived to Independiente.
How am I going to say no to him? What if I say no and then he gives me a referee I don’t want?
In 2004 Andres Ducatenzeiler was suspended by AFA for 2 years for speaking publicly against Grondona, incriminating him in illegal activities.
Since the,n he has also started legal action against the President of AFA.
His successor in Independiente, was Julio Comparada, who was a business partner of Grondona in the Insurance company “Surcos” used by AFA. And AFA’s marketing company “Puntogol”
Coincidental trivia, during Ducatenzeiler last 30 games as president, Independiente were not given any penalty kicks by referees, while they were given 1 per game in the first 7 games of his successor.